Head Coach Pat Shurmur
Q: What happened to Donte Deayon yesterday? He had some problems with his hamstring?
A: Yeah, he's fine, it will just be a short time before he is back out there.
Q: How's the center competition shaking out?
A: We have Brett Jones and Pio (Jon Halapio) and we have some other guys in there working as well. They are doing a good job. We talked a lot yesterday about how it's important for the center to communicate and communicate well, block their guy and certainly work in conjunction with the guards. I think those guys are doing that. They are going through the first phase of padded practices, which are important. We'll get through the second phase after the day off tomorrow and certainly the preseason games will be the final piece of that evaluation.
Q: What have you seen from Olivier Vernon?
A: We all know he is a dynamic pass rusher, but he does a very good job playing the run as well. He was here all spring really engaged in everything we're doing, learning the new defense. I have a great appreciation for what a pro he is.
Q: You mentioned you are a hard marker on centers. What about quarterbacks, because you work with them so much, especially a rookie like Kyle Lauletta?
A: We have expectations and demands, we have standards, so when you're out there watching them play, to the naked eye it may look like something was a good play when there is maybe some things he could have done better. There's always fundamentals to talk about in terms of taking a snap, dropping back and throwing. There is constant communication there. The one thing you mentioned, the fact that I'm hard on quarterbacks, I don't know about that. We are very demanding. If you have been around enough quarterbacks, they are hard on themselves. They are driven to get it right.
Q: When you evaluate him, in your head is he the 4*th* round pick from Richmond or he might as well be a 1*st* round pick?
A: He's a New York Football Giant and we are trying to get him ready to play. Really anybody on our 90-man roster could be out there playing against Jacksonville. You see we get reps for the 1's, the 2's and the 3's and we certainly do a lot to get the quarterbacks ready, so I really don't care where he was picked.
Q: What did you think of Eli and Davis Webb's play yesterday? They both seemed to have a good day?
A: I think they have consistently performed well throughout the camp. I've watched it with a little different vision of what we want to get done, but they threw the ball well, they did some good things. What's good about our practice sessions is we get a lot of different blitz combinations and concepts. It's the real mental gymnastics that quarterbacks need to go through and I thought they did a good job of sometimes knowing if they were blocked properly, if there was an extra guy or making adjustments necessary to fix a problem.
Q: You mentioned the blitzes and the concepts, does that put your offensive line at a disadvantage this early in camp?
A: I don't think so. Everybody is giving play by play, day by day analysis of what's going on, I get it. There's a craving for that type of information. 'Boy, the o-line is doing great.' I get that. I see it differently, I get that it's important that we go out there and work on certain things. If we're only running one play against one defense and everybody is getting it right all the time, then we're not getting enough done. The more that we can see in practice, the better we'll be against Jacksonville, Houston, Dallas and so on.
Q: What are you working on with the offensive line that we don't see?
A: Everything. Thirty-one other teams are doing the same thing. All the fundamentals that are necessary to play the position, involvement in all the schemes we want to run, and then you match that against the different variations of defenses and pressures that you get. That's basically it.
Q: Are you encouraged by what you have seen from the offensive line?
A: I am and, again, I don't have anything from a year ago to compare it to, but I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing from the guys that are in there. You've already written a lot of articles and done a lot of interviews about how we made a big change up there. I like how they are working together.
Q: What are you looking to gain from the offensive linemen in the 1 on 1 drill?
A: The drill work tends to be skewed to one side or the other. When we are going 1 on 1 against the defensive backs, that's sort of skewed to the receivers. There are times when the 1 on 1 pass rush drill is skewed toward the rushers. Within the drill, you may not see it, but on this day, Will Hernandez will be working on short setting. He may do three or four well and then get beat on one. Maybe on this next drill, he's working on vertical setting. They're working on their techniques within the drills. I think you have to be really, really careful, and I know there are a lot of evaluators that will say, 'boy, he did a great job in 1 on 1.' Well, we play the game 11 on 11. The drill work is one thing, but that's why it's so critical to see the 11 on 11 drills, the pre-season games, and when we scheme it up and play real football.
Q: You mentioned yesterday that the idea is to have a three down tight end. Is Evan Engram that guy already in his career. We've seen him make great catches obviously, but how's his blocking?
A: Yeah, we feel like he's a three-down tight end. He's improved his blocking, he works on it constantly. Obviously, his redeeming quality is as a pass receiver, and he works on that constantly. [For] tight ends, it's every day. It's like a quarterback – you say, OK, what does the quarterback do? They get the play from the coach, they make sure everybody's lined up, they execute a cadence, they take a snap, they either hand the ball off or drop back and throw it, and then when things don't go right, they fix it. That's what a quarterback does and so then, throughout his day, he works on those things. As a tight end, you work on run blocking, you work on running routes, catching passes, and pass protection, and so they work on all those things. They've been doing that.
Q: You've been out here four or five days with practice, a couple days with pads, what have you seen from Odell as a player coming back from a serious injury last year?
A: I see what I expected to see when we started to communicate back in February. This guy loves to play football, he trains extremely hard, he's totally engaged in the meetings behind the scenes, the things that the world is not aware of, and he's got a lot of passion for the game. We were just out in a walk-thru and I saw three or four times when he was talking to different players about certain techniques within the play. That's all good stuff.
Q: We've asked you a lot about the offense and the defense, but we haven't really asked you much about special teams. Is that still kind of scattered right now, or are you starting to get an idea on your core guys and how that's going to shape up?
A: Yeah, we have an idea of who our core guys might be within the 90-man roster here as we get ready to take it to the 53. [We've] got a pretty good idea on the specialists, and we just keep working on it and owning it. Some of it will be determined – there are guys that will make this team because of special teams, and really, they're going be fourth down players first and then we'll find a role on first, second, and third downs. So, there's going be a few guys that do that. Then there are other guys that are first, second, third down players that will contribute on special teams. Every guy has their role and has to do their job well, so that's sort of how we're practicing.
Quarterback Davis Webb
A: You have to change it to scheme. It's all about matchups and players. Especially, with us, I'm fortunate to be around Odell and Saquon. He's going to have to tweak against us, tweak against other people. So, it's all about them. But, I'm definitely prepared.
Q: Do you keep all your games notes and preparation and study it in the offseason?
A: Oh yeah, I kept it all. I keep every binder each and every week of the defensive coordinator.
Q: What's the best thing in camp that you like about your game in terms of mechanics or execution?
A: I think I really worked hard this summer on pocket movement and escaping, and avoiding the rush, and throwing on the run. That's something I really try to enhance – throwing on the run once the play breaks down; getting out of the pocket.
Q: Talk about Eli Manning and what he means to you in terms of your progression and growth as a quarterback.
A: Eli? He's the best I've ever seen throw it. I mean, he has total command of the offense – attention wise, route wise, teaching everybody on the fly on the field and off the field. He's ready to rock and roll. We'll all try to keep up. He sets that tone, and I know he's going to play his best.
Q: How have these first few training camp practices been for you in terms of helping the rest of the quarterbacks in the room?
A: I think we all want to be successful. So, we're all trying to help each other out so we can all have a successful practice. We're all trying to be good teammates. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
Q: You all have each other's backs in there, right? (Quarterbacks)
A: Oh easily, yeah. We don't ever look at it as competition. You just got to do the best you can and let the coaches decide for them. That's their job. Our job is to throw it to the open guy.
A: I'm just really buying into the style of Coach Shurmur and what he's preaching to us each and every day. It's fun.
Q: With having a year under your belt, do you feel more comfortable heading into this season?
A: Yeah. I think you try to do the best you can to prepare, and when that time comes, hopefully you're ready. I got to see the worst of the worst last year. I got a first-hand experience in that one, even though I wasn't totally in the fire, I was a fly on the wall per se. I was in the meeting rooms, I saw how our team kind of got hurt, and things didn't go our way. But now, this is great. We're moving on, and we're ready to rock and roll.
Q: How have you benefited from the idea that you all are learning a new system?
A: We're all learning at the same pace. Obviously, [Eli Manning] he's picked up quicker and he's able to kind of go another step further than all of us because he's Eli Manning. At the same time, we're kind of able to have communication and say, hey – this is what we talked about in OTAs. How are we going to change it in training camp, and to the season? It's been fun to kind of be on the same page. Our relationship had definitely gotten stronger.
Tight End Rhett Ellison
Q: Rhett, what does a guy like Nate Solder bring to this offense?
A: Right off the bat, he's just a great guy, great person. A lot of times the greatest football players are great people first. Having that presence, having that example and leadership was very impactful right off the bat.
Q: Rhett, you were with coach Shurmur in Minnesota, how is he different than what you expected in his new role as a head coach and does that familiarity with him help you in any way?
A: Yeah, definitely. Right off the bat, the language is similar, I'm fluent with it a little bit. Shurmur is a very flexible guy, he doesn't like to be rigid with his offense, he likes to be able to do a lot of things with a lot of different types of people, so it's been a lot of fun to have an offense like that and get back to that, it's been a good time.
Q: You can tell already by what you guys have installed that this offense is going to have a lot of his fingerprints on it, right?
A: Yeah, definitely. It's also the players' fingerprints - you play the offense and make the calls that are going to be the best for those players, depending on who is on the field at the time. That's what I meant by he's flexible, he takes what the players are good at and really puts an exclamation point on it.
Q: So that makes the learning of the new playbook a lot easier than it otherwise would be?
A: Yeah. Typically, you get in an offense and its like 'this is what a two tight end personnel does' and that's it, this is what a three wide receiver personnel does and that's it', so for him it's just very conceptual.
Q: Does he come to some of the veterans and ask them for input, "What do you think about this, what do you think about this situation?"
A: That's probably a good question for the quarterbacks because they're the leaders of the offense. I think he does go around to the quarterbacks and asks them stuff they like and things like that, but I think he also goes around to the coaches and asks them what they like, again he's just a very flexible guy.
Q: There have been some questions from some of the writers about whether Barkley can adjust to running with a fullback because at Penn State he didn't. From what you know about this offense, obviously you may even play some snaps at fullback, do you think that's going to be much of an adjustment for him?
A: From what I've seen from Barkley, he is obviously very gifted, his instincts are very impressive, so putting fullback in the mix changes the timing here and there, changes the read a little bit, but I think he'll pick it up just fine.
Guard Will Hernandez
Q: How would you say early in camp the chemistry on the offensive line is coming along? It's pretty important for a group with essentially five new starters.
A: I feel like I've known these guys for a long time in the short period of time we have known each other. They've treated me like I was one of them. They started guiding me and showing me the ropes right away and started the teaching process with me. These guys are great, everyone gets along pretty well. We are spending so much time with each other in camp, everyone gets to know each other real quick.
Q: What have these padded practices told you about yourself and the NFL?
A: It has shown me that the speed has definitely changed. We have incredible athletes here, especially on our defense. So it has just shown me that I have to pick it up, the game speed is going to be a lot faster, you have to be able to do all your progressions through your head and all your footwork at a lot faster pace.
Q: Has that been easy and natural for you?
A: Yeah, we're getting adapted to it and with all the veterans giving me pointers here and there, it has been an easier process than I thought.
Q: How would you assess your first few days? Do you feel comfortable heading into this week knowing that you have a week under your belt?
A: For sure. As soon as we got the pads on and I got a feel for everything that we have to do all the time and the technique we have been working on since OTAs, I got a feel what it's like going up against these guys with pads on. It wasn't too much of a different transition and I was able to get it down. These veterans are helping me out every single play so it makes it that much easier.
Q: There are so many new faces on this offensive line. Are there any short-term goals that the line has talked about that you may have besides, obviously, getting day by day chemistry improved?
A: Yeah, there's a lot of specific technical things that we try to get better with everyday and that they point out that I need to work on, but overall it's communicating throughout the whole line and being on the same page. That's the main goal and the short-term goal every single play too.
Q: Talk about going against 'Snacks' everyday. How difficult of a thing is that?
A: First, he's a great player. I'm really glad he plays for us because I'm able to go against him every practice, it's just going to make me and the whole offensive line better players. How heavy and dense he is, it makes you have to work that much harder. When games come around it's going to be that much easier.
Q: Did you guys talk about that little scuff you had in minicamp?
A: No, it was never the plan, we're never focused on fighting or anything like that. Stuff happens sometimes, we're competing. He's a great competitor as well. The offensive line and defensive line both want to do well every practice. Things happen but after they happen, we brush it away, let it go and keep on practicing the way we should.
Q: What kind of a running back is Wayne Gallman?
A: He's a great running back, I think all of the running backs we have are really good. They all have had a special play within the last few days of practice. It just makes me feel excited for our running back group.
Tight Ends Coach Lunda Wells
Q: Tight ends seemed to be used in a lot more variety of ways this season. How is that being influenced?
A: I think it goes back to how coach [Pat] Shurmur puts in his offense. At times it pops off as if they're strategically being used at different spots, but it's kind of his philosophy offensively in terms of no matter what personnel grouping we're in, anybody can line up at any spot and execute any scheme we have in the offense. So at times it's like, oh the tight end is split out as the number one spot and runs a route and catches the ball and oh they're playing from deep out there. Pat [Shurmur] could've easily just called a play and they ended up outside and it just happens. The versatility in terms of understanding every position has been the philosophy by Pat [Shurmur] and that's why it seems like we're lined up in multiple spots.
Q: Pat talked about Evan Engram improving as a blocker and kind of blossoming into that kind of three-down tight end type of a player. What have you seen from him throughout the offseason and now kind of building on that skillset as a receiver and being a complete tight end?
A: Obviously we know what he is as a receiver. He's done a nice job in terms of trying to understand A, the scheme, but then B, understanding the fine details within the scheme. He's done a nice job with continuing to understand the details of the techniques within the scheme so I think that's been in line with him to become a better blocker for us so far.
Q: Is [Garrett] Dickerson still limited? Has he been held out?
A: He's been working through some things. I think that's one question for Pat [Shurmur], but yeah he's been working through some things.
Q: What have you seen from him as a guy trying to stick on the fringe of the roster?
A: One of the biggest things that I always talk about, you know, tight ends having a redeeming quality. You caught on tape – a guy he's a blocker, a guy he's a receiver or hey this guy is a headsy player, he's a smart player. [Garrett] Dickerson's redeeming quality so far has been he's been very sharp, he's very sharp, which allows him to play a tick faster than what his 40 [yard dash] time might be and be effective. His sharpness is really good, he's a Northwestern guy so that contributes to it [laughs].
Q: You mentioned before that you know what Evan [Engram] is as a receiver, that he's a pass catcher. But he did have some drops last year. Was there maybe one thing he needed to work on there? What do you see about the drops?
A: Like anything, there is always room for improvement and in terms of drops, always circle the wagon and talk about, hey how did you drop the ball and why did you drop it. One of the biggest things we focused on this year is catching the ball with proper technique. I call it catch fundamentals, so you'll see at times a guy catches the ball and everybody goes crazy like wow he caught the ball, but he might have not utilized the proper technique in terms of catching it. Sometimes things work without using the right technique, but at times at the most critical moment, they don't work if you continue to not use the right technique in terms of catching the ball. So we emphasized that in terms of proper catch technique and again the only way to emphasize proper catch technique is to catch more balls so pre practice, during practice, post practice is real critical even in the meeting room catch the balls, even do ball drills in the meeting rooms for all the guys. Again, you could never catch enough footballs as you already know.
Q: And that was the consistent thing that you saw last year from him?
A: Sometimes, sometimes, just fine details. In terms of this getting your pinkies together or getting your thumbs together so just little fine details are some things that might show up.
Q: Is some of that harder to do because of someone like Odell [Beckham Jr.], going back to the one-handed catches and that spectacular is what sells. So is that something you have to combat with young players?
A: No because again in my own opinion, when the ball is thrown to you, you got to fall in love with the football. So when it's thrown to you, you got to catch the ball. Whether that's high, low, behind me, doesn't matter: catch the football. The one handed catch, when you can make a technique catch, you overcome that by saying hey you don't need to do that. I think it's one of those things where you try to draw a fine line where you don't want to discourage a guy to making a play on the ball that might be not so perfect. That doesn't play a big part in terms of Odell [Beckham Jr.] made a one handed catch because again, if Odell [Beckham Jr.] had tried to make that one handed catch technique wise, he probably wouldn't have made it. I think the key emphasis is fall in love with the ball and catch it properly when you can and then when you can't, hey, catch the ball.
Q: When we talk tight ends we all talk Evan [Engram]. I mean, Rhett [Ellison], I mean is he your short yardage guy? Is he your extra lineman type guy?
A: I can't define his role as being the short yardage guy. Can't define Evan [Engram]'s role as just pass catching guy. I think both of those guys have redeeming qualities in the run and pass game. Their role will be defined as we continue to go along with training camp, preseason and get into the game plans. Their roles have not been defined, those roles are still to be determined.
Q: You talked a little bit about how in this game you could move Evan [Engram] outside or put him into the slot. For your position group, how much does that help when you can get two guys on the field and really have that unpredictability factor against the defense?
A: Two tight ends on the field equals big speed, right? I think whenever you're able to – it's always good when you can not be predictable. When you can keep the defense off balance on run and pass, it's always great. So being able to play both tight ends at a time and be effective with it in the run game, obviously, but also to be explosive in the pass game, that really helps as an offense in general and as a team. You can do both and you can be explosive in both. You want to have the ability to be potentially explosive on every play that you run whether or not it's a run play, pass play, 11 personnel, 12 personnel, doesn't matter. The more explosive plays you have in the game, the better chance you have as a team to win.
Defensive Backs Coach Lou Anarumo
Q: How are the DBs shaping up?
A: What are we, through practice 4? Got number 5 coming up. So far, so good. The guys are working hard, doing what we ask, and I'm happy with where they're at from a competition standpoint. As a coach, that's one of your biggest attributes is having competitions so the guys don't get comfortable, and we've got it pretty much all over the field. So, I'm happy with where we're at so far.
Q: The way I count how many practices you have had is how many different guys are playing free safety. Have you ever done anything like that before, where you have first team reps for four different guys rotating by the day?
A: Yeah, and then just the definition of competition, we're gonna give those guys an opportunity to go out there with the first group and see how they do, and really it's a rotation. As we get deeper into camp, it'll be more merit-based on, hey, we're playing in some games and we're actually tackling people and we'll see how it goes, but we won't find out who the best ones are unless we give them a chance, so that's how we're doing it.
Q: So right now, it's not necessarily merit-based? Whether you do well or not, the next day the next guy is still going to get his opportunity?
A: Yeah. We're still so early that we want to give everybody a chance to show what they can do one way or the other, and we've got such young guys there, to be honest with you, so it's going to be something that we're gonna go day by day.
Q: Speaking of tackling, with the change in the helmet rule, defensive backs tend to fly in a little bit more because they're dealing with guys who are shiftier, so how are you addressing that in your teaching so that they're properly tackling according to the rule?
A: Good question. Obviously it's a hot topic and for me as a coach, we've never talked about using our head. It's always been shoulder, so we're always gonna try to put ourselves in position where our head is up, we're seeing, we gotta see what we hit, but we're gonna overemphasize it even more and focus on the shoulder tackles and wrapping up, and keep the head totally out of it.
Q: Can you drill that?
A: Yeah, absolutely, and we do. We do it every day, and tackling is a big part. You still gotta be able to tackle. It's football, they're not gonna blow the whistle until the guy's on the ground, so we do it every day and we're obviously stressing that.
Q: Do you intend to use Michael Thomas possibly in the slot as well, or do you see him as a safety?
A: I think Mike has played that for me. We've won games in Miami with Mike starting at [nickel], and so one of the attributes that he brings is that he is a multiple position guy, so I want him to get the safety stuff down here and then knowing that he can move around and maybe do some other things in a pinch, that's been one of his trademarks. We go back, I got him on a Tuesday in 2013, we got to pick him up off of waivers from the 49ers on a practice squad. It was probably week 13 or 14 and I said, 'hey, Mike, you're probably not gonna play this game, but we gotta get ready to play,' and he ends up coming in the last drive of the game picking off Tom Brady to win the game, on the last play of the game, in the end zone, at nickel. So he's played it at a high level and done it against the best.
Q: With losing Sam Beal, who else is in that nickel conversation right now?
A: I think again, it's kind of like the free safety, we're just gonna keep evaluating every day and see who's making strides. Donte Deayon had a heck of a pick yesterday and he's gotten his hands on some balls, B.W. Webb and Will Gay, all those guys are in the mix until we kind of figure it out.
Q: How much has Grant Haley grown from when you first got him here until now?
A: Yeah, I think he's like a lot of rookies that you're going to see the ups and the downs, and the inconsistencies in their play, but the thing I love about Grant is he's a competitor, he works his butt off, he's a true professional already, you don't have to talk to him about that stuff. So, while he'll have a day where it's pretty good, then he'll kind of slop back to being a rookie, and that's the biggest thing is we've gotta get those guys to be consistent.
Q: When you say slopping back to being a rookie, what do you see that you say that, you know what, we've gotta get on him?
A: For the most part with those guys, with anybody, they're focused on 'what's my job, what do I have to do', right? And the good players in this league, they know what they have to do, now they can focus on what the offense is trying to do to them, and until they get to that point, they'll always struggle a little bit. That's when I say, hey, you may be going back to a little rookie mindset, where, 'am I supposed to be outside, am I supposed to be inside' – not, 'hey, who's that guy, how's he lining up, and how's he gonna try to beat me?' Those are the veteran nickel players that I've had or outside guys, that's what they're thinking. They're not worried about what their job is.
Q: Do you see that on install days, when you're bringing in an install?
A: Yeah, and that's no different than anyone else I've ever coached.
Q: What makes Janoris a special corner? I know you haven't been around him before this year, but do you notice kind of a chip on his shoulder, because he was certainly outspoken about wanting high goals – I think he said 8 interceptions, he was angry that he wasn't listed in the top-10 cornerbacks in the NFL – all that stuff that doesn't matter to you as a coach, but to him, do you sense a chip on his shoulder?
A: I just think that, first and foremost, he is a fierce competitor. You ask what made him so good, he's an elite athlete, and so when you have those two things together – he doesn't want to lose Jacks in the locker room, you know? He's that guy. So, I think, does he have a chip on his shoulder? I'm sure – I don't want to speak for him, but he's looking to put his best foot forward, he feels like he's one hundred percent healthy, and I know he said the other day. He's a true professional, a true football player in the time that I've been here. He's been great.
Q: You obviously had a relationship with Michael Thomas from Miami. Did they consult you at all when it came time to sign him?
A: Obviously, yeah, for sure. Mike's a great human being, first and foremost. We were talking earlier, told a long-winded story, but I've had him for a long time. Michael's a great guy, and can do so many different things, and I think the stat that I didn't even realize is he leads the NFL in special teams tackles since 2014-15, so he's gonna bring that immediate impact to us, and then he brings some position flex on defense.
Q: Pretty much every player says Bettcher's defense is aggressive. That seems kind of obvious, but is anything different? You've been with different coordinators – is there anything different about his?
A: When you think of aggressive, you're thinking about pressuring, you're thinking about dictating to the offense, and I think so maybe the uptick in a number of pressures, potentially. But I think every game plan dictates how you're going to call it or what you're gonna have in a game plan anyway, but by nature, it's a pressure scheme, for sure.
Q: How much can Donte Deayon do to negate the size that teams will pick on in game, but he's always been a guy that's gone after the ball like this, so at what point does he cross the threshold of not only can he make plays in practice, but we want him on the field on Sunday?
A: Well, you just hit the nail on the head – staying on the field, right? He's gotta stay on the field. He had a good day yesterday, but now, a little bit of a nick up yesterday, so we'll see how it goes, but I think to me, that's the biggest thing is for him, staying healthy, being out there in a consistent manner because ball skills, that's high on the list of things that he's gonna have to do. I just think staying healthy, taking care of himself. He's trying. He's a great kid and working really hard, so hoping that just stays for him.
Q: The other day, I want to say it was Lewis-Harris and I may be wrong – had coverage on Roger Lewis, but then je drops the interception. Does he get a plus or a minus on that play?
A: He gets a plus with a 'hey, by the way, catch the ones they throw to you', right? Because it's very rare in this league. That's how you get interceptions – you get interceptions in this league on tips and overthrows, first and foremost, bad decisions by the quarterback is third, and then guys making great plays, that's probably third or fourth on the list. That's the nature of how interceptions come in this league.
Q: Kind of had that the other day when Landon got his pick, it was just in the right place at that point?
A: Yeah, it was little overthrown, he stepped in front and made the play.
Q: With Eli Apple, do you try to be more hands-on as a young guy who's trying to come back, or do you try to be more hands-off?
A: No, he's a young player that needs to be coached every [second] of every [minute], like any other young guy. That's how I've always approached it, even with my veteran guys that I've had, the Cortland Finnegan's at the end of their career, the Louis Delmas', Brent Grimes – I got Brent I think after six/seven years, and he went to three straight Pro Bowls, and he just wanted to be coached every day. So I think the good ones, they want to know what's going on. The day you think you got it as a player or as a coach, that's the day you're probably on the way out the door. I'll stay on him, but just like anybody else.